Sailmaker advice

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Ülari
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Sailmaker advice

Post by Ülari » Mon Aug 30, 2021 17:51 pm

Since I am not happy with my current light wind upwind set, I am considering ordering new main and light/med G1, if budget allows it. I wanted to know how other brand sails compare against WB, since I have heard that WB has more experience with FE83 sails than other sailmakers. Has anybody used brands like North Sails and One Sails, or some cheaper options that are also great for racing?
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harald
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Re: Sailmaker advice

Post by harald » Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:31 am

I think Subbota has One Sails sails. Alex will probably be able to talk about them. At least they are large enough. I just got a North G1 3Di 760. I think that as long as the sails are somewhat OK the difference comes from a lot of other differences.

I haven't raced with the North G1 yet, but the current Class Champion won with a WB Dacron OD mainsail (which I can recommend) and a North 360 3Di genoa 1. The sail feels great, but we don't know until we meet at the top mark. We won in 2015 with a 2010 WB D4 aramid genoa 1 and a loaned used mainsail that was very much a potato sack. I would say that the G1 is more important than the mainsail, within reasonable limits.

I would recommend a WB Dacron OD mainsail. The North 3Di 360 looks good, but we don't know yet how durable it is, neither do we know about my 3Di 760. On the site blur.se they have had good experience with the durability of 3Di sails, so I'm hopeful.

The WB G1 sails are fast, but I have some gripes with the mylar film used in them.
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Re: Sailmaker advice

Post by Cage » Tue Aug 31, 2021 18:19 pm

If you order WB OD main sail, be sure to say you want the newer design or to be more specific, the same cut and design as Charlotta and Merelli. I oderder OD main sail and I got the old design, which is smaller at the top. :roll:

North 3Di 360 is fairly affordable. I'm very happy with my WB aramid+TFT G1 (matt light grey, very easy on the eyes). Charlotta's North 3Di 760 looks very nice (except that it's black :lol: ). WB seems to have the smallest designs, North G1 a lot larger than WB and One Sails main larger than WB. North spinnaker I think is larger than WB spinnaker as well. One Sails has interesting material Forte. North seems to have deeper design than WB, so could be a bit easier and more forgiving in terms of steering? :-k

@Alex, is Subbota's main made of Forte? Would be interesting to hear experiences of the material.
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Re: Sailmaker advice

Post by alex » Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:58 am

I have OneSails mainsail on Subbota for two seasons already. It is a triradial cut made of Dimension Polyant Pro Radial sailcloth. It's basically a high-quality Dacron. The sail shape is fuller compared to WB.

WB typically makes pretty flat sail shapes, at least for FE. The shapes are superb when the water is flat and the wind is relatively strong (10+ knots). During last years we seem to have had a developing problem in Finland - we have a lot more days with too light wind comparing to what we had ten years ago.

The OneSails shape is fuller which gives more trimming options.

My G1 is a Polyester laminate from WB, now about 4-5 years old. It's a good sail except they could have thought details better. Sometimes the sail annoys me a lot. Before that, I had another very similar sail from WB which was better in detail, but the cloth deteriorated quicker than I would like it to happen.

Finn Express is not Finn, where WB is a clearly recognized leader. Some years ago it was an era of total domination of Harald and Charlotta - everyone tried to copy them, including the sailmaker selection. The WB, however, has been criticized lately for very poor customer service and inability to listen to customers' needs. My WB experience is not an exception - they promise a lot and they do too little. OneSails is a lot more balanced - they promise less and the service is more reasonable.

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Re: Sailmaker advice

Post by hankki » Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:53 pm

Cage, is it enough to refer to the *no 40836 Isopurje ODC 21,1 m2 6,46/6,5 oz Pro Radial Dacron as a spec to get the latest and greatest they have in that range? Or do they still develop newer variations?

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Re: Sailmaker advice

Post by Cage » Thu Sep 02, 2021 14:08 pm

hankki wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:53 pm
Cage, is it enough to refer to the *no 40836 Isopurje ODC 21,1 m2 6,46/6,5 oz Pro Radial Dacron as a spec to get the latest and greatest they have in that range? Or do they still develop newer variations?
Dunno. We ordered the HTP-version, so number is different. But also the radial dacron product number from 2016 is different to the one you mentioned, so *maybe* they changed it since then. To be on the safe side, say "the same cut as Charlotta has". It then larger than our at the top and also the radial cut goes higher (to second reef, I think. Our radial goes to first reef or so, if I remember correctly).
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Re: Sailmaker advice

Post by harald » Thu Sep 02, 2021 14:37 pm

Also the Racing Dacron has been great. It's more loud than the softer variant, but who sails a FEne with flapping sails anyways?
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Re: Sailmaker advice

Post by Ülari » Tue Sep 07, 2021 23:48 pm

Here is my current setup: Cut Melges 24 main, 18,76 sqm, I dont know if it is good or bad, I have not compared it much to class sail (I have one too, but it is worn, holds shape but looks like can blow up any time).
16,73 sqm genoa: Cross cut DP lite skin (from local sailmaker). I wanted sail to be stronger and heavier, since we carry big genoa up to 10m/s and prefer to do so unless waves are small. But in light winds we struggle with this genoa. Ordering light or light/medium G1 is priority for next season and main reason I am asking for opinions here. Right now I am leaning towards One Sails, but Zadro Sails from Italy made also really tempting quote: 1360 + VAT for membrane sail, but I dont know if I want to risk with unknown sailmaker.
And my G3 is second hand matrix polyester WB.

Here are some pictures of my main and g1:
Image

Image

Image
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Re: Sailmaker advice

Post by harald » Thu Sep 09, 2021 15:59 pm

This is not a light wind missile, that's true. The size and look of that G1 of Yours doesn't look bad. I think You suffer more from the small mainsail. According to the Finnrating [1] certificate the max mainsail is about 20.5 m² and the G1 17.6 m².

We now generally tend to change to G3 at or around 14 knots true. 12 if flat water. This gives better pointing ability on the beat, which is a very powerful tactical weapon on windward-leeward courses. This works for us because we have max sized mainsail too.

I wouldn't worry too much about the genoa one, it looks fine to me. Is it ridiculously stiff in the front part of the sail making it out of shape or hard to read when driving?

[1] https://avarit.org/avarit/finratingtabl ... press%2083

I suggest that You look at a good mainsail, it's worth it's money for sure.
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Re: Sailmaker advice

Post by Ülari » Fri Sep 17, 2021 20:54 pm

harald wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 15:59 pm
Is it ridiculously stiff in the front part of the sail making it out of shape or hard to read when driving?
That too, to some extent. But my biggest issue is with too flat section in upper part of the sail and heavy material that does not hold shape in low winds with old (big) waves.
I am planning for new full sized main also, however this will also hit our rating, but it should be fine, since our heavy wind performance can survive hit in rating and low/medium we will be faster too. I was also considering larger spinnaker (40 sqm), at least for Moonsund Regatta, that is 7 days of offshore races (well one day is 3 windward/leeward races, but total result of them will count as one race). Since statistically there are a lot of spinnaker legs in Moonsund regatta. But then again, our current sail setup works really well in windward/leeward and this is kind of racing I personally enjoy the most, so I dont know if it is worth it.
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Re: Sailmaker advice

Post by harald » Fri Sep 17, 2021 23:28 pm

"All" of our sails feel too flat in the top section in the light, You just have to suck it up and concentrate on sailing.

Remember that old and big waves is challenging for everyone. I wouldn't tune my boat for that weather if it wasn't the one and only weather we would be sailing in.

You will surely be happy with a max sized mainsail. That I can assure You.

I could imagine that a larger spinnaker would be nice in the really light, but does the boat really sail to it's handicap is another question. The small spinnaker is great at flying while the larger ones are hanging. I haven't tried a larger spinnaker, so it's hard to say. I guess we'll get some info next fall. :)

I feel that although small, the spinnaker really works both in W/L but also on tight reaches.

Some year we will attend the Moonsund-regatta.
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Re: Sailmaker advice

Post by alex » Sun Sep 19, 2021 20:18 pm

Ülari wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 20:54 pm
But my biggest issue is with too flat section in upper part of the sail and heavy material that does not hold shape in low winds with old (big) waves.
I have replaced the top batten in every mainsail I have or had on FE83. Consider replacing the top batten in the Genoa if you have it.

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Re: Sailmaker advice

Post by harald » Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:20 am

Surely no batten in a genoa?
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Re: Sailmaker advice

Post by Ülari » Tue Sep 21, 2021 18:47 pm

No battens on g1, does anybody even have them on G1?

About larger spinnakers, I think biggest difference will be in medium winds. Since in really light, smaller spinnakers tend to perform better. We have special tight reacing spinnaker (S0) with smallest mid grith rules allow (75%). It is 2 sqm smaller than our 33 sqm S2, same weight cloth, but with really light winds, stays up better. So in under about 3 knots of wind, we use it even for VMG run.
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Re: Sailmaker advice

Post by harald » Wed Sep 22, 2021 09:35 am

I think You're correct regarding the spinnaker size. In medium to light wind a larger spinnaker will be able to point down sooner. The difference here is marginal and depends on the capability of the crew to actually sail the puffs and shifts as well. I don't think one would gain much (vs. the handicap) by having a larger spinnaker than standard. In a OD-fleet You would of course have an edge on the fleet when on the run, but that's cheating :)
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